Small Woodland Owners' Group

Advice which trees to plant?

Trees and Plants!

Postby Emily. D » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:26 pm

For my Dad's 60th B'day he is planting a smallish woodland (1-2 acres)in Sommerset. He has been advised/ had a plan drawn up by somebody who is proposing to plant mainly Sycamores, I am rather sceptical of this being the right choice, as i believe these to be the trees which ooze lots of sap and have been advised that Sycamores are like weeds which self plant and can be a pain, also that they create a very dark floor to the woodland.


I know my Dad is keen on Beech trees, though i know nothing of their pros and cons. I do know he would ideally like to have some bluebells established. I know he will plant just a few oaks (for the future which will be slower growing)


I particularly love trees which have low branching, possibly known as 'forked trees' and would love to include a few of these, does anyone know how this is possible?


Most of the trees are being transplanted, but obviously things to be considered are; how easy a tree is to establish and speed of growth. We hope that the woodland can be enjoyed for many years by my Dad and is something that will mature and flourish for the future.


I would be very grateful for advice on which trees to select.


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Postby John H » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:31 pm

I am no expert, but I certainly would not be planting Sycamore. I would go with mainly oak and ash and maybe a few beech if the soil is suitable. The occasional rowan, wild service tree ,wild cherry add interest. Birch will grow quickly and draw the oak and ash upwards.


Have you looked into getting a grant from the Forestry Commissionbut they will probably like the above mix but will insist on a certain number of trees per hectare,1500 I think.


I like to think I am growing trees for the next generation and I think they will want straight trunks with at least 3m to the first branch. No tree lasts for ever and when it dies or is harvested it is nice to think it will be used to make a piece of fine furniture or to repair an old timber building. Trees with low branches are destined only for the woodburner.


How old are the trees you are transplanting? A small plant will establish itself faster than a larger one , so a 12inch tree after a few years will be the same height as say a 5 foot tree planted at the same time.


John


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Postby tracy » Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:41 pm

Hi Emily


Sounds like an exciting plan. I think John is right, start with talking to someone at the Forestry Commission, as there is a lot to think about like:

1. land that is a marvellous meadow, might not benefit from becoming woodland.

2. Trees don't grow well with grass around them- so could be a lot of changes needed. Trees also need the associated fungi to help them grow. I am sure there are ways around this!

3. Know the soil type -

http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-2656

4. BTCV have a really good book on line called tree planting and aftercare, if you google it you will find it. Very useful reading!


I hope this helps to get you started, let us know how you get on

Tracy


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Postby Exeldama » Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:22 pm

Deffinitley not loads of sycamore, or indeed loads of anything.


Establish what soil you have then what will grow well. Look around the area and see whats thriving already.


Then mix it up. Variety. i suspect there will be lots to choose from. As said make sure they are protected, nurse trees nearby for the slower growing ones is good.


At the end of the day it depends what your Dad wants to achieve..protect a species, preserve aretreat for the future, have somewhere to play with as it grows.. many thoughts besides.


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Postby DaveTaz » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:18 am

Ideally follow the National Vegetation Classification Scheme http://www.jncc.gov.uk/page-4264

This scheme should indicate the type of vegetation that would be found naturally in any given area


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Postby MartinD » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:40 am

I have a Forestry Commission grant, one of the main purposes of which is to get rid of sycamore as an introduced species. They are not particularly wildlife friendly either - http://www.countrysideinfo.co.uk/woodland_manage/tree_value.htm

As you say, they also create a dense shade. Follow the advice given by DaveTaz


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Postby Exeldama » Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:23 pm

Just shows... i read recently that sycamores are good for wildlife. Guess everyone has a view. Thing is they have been around yonks, is it like the grey squirrel a little late.?


I think im right that for wildlife.. its willow, oak and birch for first dibs.


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Postby MartinD » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:16 pm

Exeldama - depends on your definition. Oak supports the most species over the lifetime of the tree, and depending on the location of the tree itself, but at any one time only a fraction of the number of different species

quoted in the table link above may be found on a single tree. Sycamore on the other hand may support fewer species, but lots of them, so the biomass available for birds to eat may be higher - so 'better for wildlife'. (I don't know that this is true, but it is a possible reading of the data).

The best thing to do though is to look at the normal woodland type in that location, on that soil type, as the local wildlife popultion will be adapted to those type of trees. And don't forget the shrub layer as well - again locally common species, but perhaps holly, hawthorn, buckthorn, guelder rose,hazel etc, to provide nest sites and winter food.


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Postby Stephen1 » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:47 pm

Sycamore is a very complicated issue!


The main points though are;


They aren't native - but a good bet in some areas for the future in terms of both climate change and the many new (i.e. new hybrid origin) phytophthoras we now have in Britain. Sycamore are relatively resistant to these diseases.


They support relatively few species of invertebrates, but they support very high numbers of the ones that do feed on them. i.e. They support a low level of biodiversity directly, but a very high biomass of certain aphids - which are great for may birds - tits etc and dormice. The variety of insects in a sycamore dominated wood is typically much lower than oak/ash dominated, but the total weight of insects is typically much higher.


The pH of their bark allows them to support similar lichens to elm (which for obvious reasons aren't as common as they once were), and as such are a good alternative host for these species until the cycle of Dutch elm disease allow elm to become prolific once more.


A new planting containing lots of sycamore is unlikely to ever be dominated by sycamore in the long term, as grey squirrel will preferentially hammer them once they are 10-20 years old! Some people trying to grow beech include sycamore in the planting as a sacrifical species in the vain hope that the grey squirrels will leave the beech alone and just damage their preferred sycamore - I've heard varying degrees of success for this.


In many ways it's your call about what your motivation and aims are! I would include some, but certainly not more than 15% myself.


Removing non-native sycamores from an ancient woodland site is a very different story. Ancient woodland is irreplacable. Planting fields with trees won't replace an ancient wood. The soils have been irreversibly changed by agriculture, and it will never support the fungi and flora of an ancient wood. It's certainly worth taking sycamore out of ancient woodland sites, but when planting a new wood then depending on the aims it can be a valuable component.


If I was planting a wood in lowland england with conservation as a priority to the two species that would dominate my initial planting mix (i.e. not necessarily what would be left to dominate the mature woodland in the longer term) would be small leafed lime and sweet chestnut.


Small leaf lime (Tilia cordata) was the dominant broadleaf tree over most of lowland england until humans started favouring oak - because it's so much more useful to humans - acorns for pigs and very durable wood.


Sweet chestnut. Not native but it grows very quickly, and so in a new woodland gives you large diameter trees very quickly, which you can ringbark to create dead standing wood when other species finally reach larger diameters. In a new woodland planted from scratch the thing missing is deadwood - either on the ground or standing. Deadwood is what most woodland specialist invertebrates need. Sweetchestnut can provide this quicker than any other durable species - i.e. fast growing willow/poplar don't give the best sort of heart wood to create deadwood from. Also if timber isn't a priority sweetchestnut recover from squirrel damage better than most species - they callous/heal wounds particularly fast, a damaged tree will never give you quality timber, but it is less likely to have the top blown out by the wind before it's healed like birch etc. would.


Don't underestimate what squirrels will do to your newly planted wood just when it's reaching a satisfying stage!!! Remember the woods you see around you grew up before grey squirrels were here - and they've only been at these current crazy numbers for a few decades which is nothing in the life of our woods - sadly they are now pretty much the keystone species...


Good luck!


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Postby Exeldama » Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:40 pm

Strange the native issue. Am in right in thinking that some of these non natives are only so because the land bridge dissapeared before they got a chance to cross over , but probably would have eventually on ther own......


Is it a bit like whats a weed... a plant that we dont find useful at the present.


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