Planning Permission for a shed within small woodland

[paulolding]

Dear All

as a new member to SWOG, apologies if this is an old forum bugbear - I did look through posts and couldn't find one that matches my enquiry

I have small woodland and I want to put up a comfortable shed around 20m2 floor space. The shed is both a place for tool storage (for coppice management) and a place that we can craft artisan woodland products on site (and a place for a composting toilet and perhaps a stove for tea). I searched the planning world and felt that my 'development' came up permitted development (part 7 of schedule 2 of the Town and Country planning (GPD) Order 1995. I submitted for 'prior approval - to be honest, they say this is a slimmed down version of full planning but it isn't really. Then I got rejected, partly because the planning officer wanted more info (not sure why he did not ask for it when considering the application) but also as he did not consider the shed to be 'reasonably necessary for the purposes of forestry'. Of course the planning office has no definition of 'forestry' and the officer only accounted for physical/conventional forestry, ie cutting down trees, whereas I also accounted for 'economic forestry', ie the on site creation of products for sale (I used some brilliant on online accounts to invoke this). I have since become very well versed in planning literature, the forestry commission site and AOBN management plan for our area, and my proposed shed still sits well (in my opinion) within all aspects. But we are still tussling. All just seems to be very overblown for a wooden shed.

Would love to hear any thoughts. Should I just ditch the Permitted Development route and reapply through full planning? Any thoughts if I do go 'full planning' permission route? Any tips or thoughts from people who have comfortable sheds in their woods? By that I mean something more than just a tool shed, ie a place to sit, have a cuppa, have composting toilet and maybe a work bench.

cheers

Paul

[oldclaypaws]

As I'm going through a similar thought process, I can see where you've shot yourself in the foot. You've stretched the rules and most importantly been too honest . The entitlement is to a 'toolstore and shelter', not a workshop. If you'd submitted a plan with two distinct areas, one marked 'toolstore' and the other 'shelter', and you list the examples of the sort of bulky non transportable genuine forestry tools that'll be there, no one can argue. Although it might be a grey area, I would think the phrase 'store' could be extended to raw forestry product, like sticks and drying timber. If however you are proposing to have a fully kitted workshop to make products and sell from it, that's a whole different ball game. They'll become interested in how much traffic it generates, how much noise, and if approved it would be followed up by a visit from the rates people to slap an annual assessment on you. After all, a workshop is a manufacturing facility for processing raw products and commercial gain, not part of forestry, its a later non-agricultural stage of the process.

If on the other hand, you get your clearly defined 'toolstore and shelter', keep yourself to yourself, are off-grid with no fancy large machine tools and stacks of finished product, don't impact on other people or generate traffic or have employees and lots of noisy kit, who's to say what you're up to, so long as theres no evidence of large scale manufacturing? The fact you're in an AONB will bring you under extra scrutiny, stricter planning is one of the prime briefs of AONB's. Its a delicate balance. Common sense dictates if you get a toolstore and shelter there's quite a few activities you can do there occasionally if discrete, nobody is going to place you under 24 hour surveillance to see if you anarchically dare carve a pattern on to a walking stick. Do too much, get noticed and incur the jealousy or wrath of another party, they'll try and put a stop to it. For info, nobody can object to you whittling sticks or making green furniture in an open space under a tarp and selling the finished items elsewhere such as at events or via craft shops, if that's the official line and the building is strictly for basic forestry. -And as most artisan craft activities generate shavings and dust and its nicer under the trees, isn't it a better idea to do most of your 'making' outside anyway, bringing your tools with you from home each day in a couple of boxes- nout there pushing the planning regs. Whose to argue if you come in to warm yourself by the stove occasionally, and accidentally find yourself making a stool, while waiting for the kettle to boil, very slowly?

If you operate on a hobbyist level and don't draw attention or upset people, any low key activity will go fairly unnoticed. If you have a slick commercial operation generating loads of traffic, revenue, and attention, you'll overstep the mark and need to hire a commercial workshop in an approved location. "Softly softly, catchy monkey". Know the rules and how to be seen to not overstep them.

Don't know your age but as many people these days retire relatively early and then look for hobbyist activities to engage in, which is seen as a 'nice thing to do', saying if asked "I'm retired and its a hobby" seems to cover a multitude of activities that would otherwise draw the attention of the guys with clipboards. Given the modest income of many artisan craft activities, I'm not sure sometimes if that isn't the truth, you don't find many wealthy commercially successful craftsmen. Its annoying when red tape gets in the way on realising a harmless pleasant activity.

[Wendelspanswick]

I think you would have been better going down the Prior Notification route rather than permitted development.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sourc ... YLd4G4jyxA
Its the route we went down to build our 50m2 shed/barn and we are in an AONB and the majority of our land is a SSSI although the shed will not be in the SSSI.

[Binz]

we had something similar with a permitted development application refused based on the proposed structure not being 'reasonably necessary'. That followed one planner saying it would be OK, just send some evidence of forestry (some photo's of some trees we'd coppiced was sufficient) then that person being replaced with a planner who said no way. If we'd time we would have looked at challenging the decision but life was too hectic and as we'd just got a 4x4 campervan the shelter was less important. We did put up a tent but storms destroyed it. Have you looked at caravans? They are probably the most practical solution (without any planning issues), if you don't like the look of normal caravans you could look at shepherds huts (expensive, but cheaper if you make your own on an old caravan chassis or convert a horse trailer).

Planning aside, I'd be worried about leaving any tools/equipment that I couldn't afford to lose in a shed.

I would also have the loo in a completely separate structure.

[Wendelspanswick]

Have you looked at caravans? They are probably the most practical solution (without any planning issues), if you don't like the look of normal caravans you could look at shepherds huts (expensive, but cheaper if you make your own on an old caravan chassis or convert a horse trailer).

I have to disagree with the point that caravans don't have any planning issues, if you have a caravan in a woodland or the countryside you are subject to planning law. You may get away with it but if someone complains or flags it up with the LA you will be asked to apply for planning permission.
Don't get confused with the rules for keeping a caravan in the curtilage of a domestic property to putting a caravan in a woodland or open countryside.

[Binz]

I understood that caravans (if not used as residential) did not require planning. "Using a caravan for forestry purposes, such as storage, shelter for workers or as an office, is another matter. Provided the caravan is not for residential use, it falls completely outside planning controls, and you do not need to ask the planning authority in advance. " from http://www.woodlands.co.uk/owning-a-woo ... gislation/

[smojo]

I understood that caravans (if not used as residential) did not require planning.

Me too. As far as I know, because they are "mobile" structures, they come under different rules. You are allowed to keep one there permanently as long as it is moveable. You are allowed to stay overnight in it up to 28 days per year (but who's counting). I'm sure Dexter would confirm this as he has put one in his wood. We haven't heard from him for a while so maybe he's there right now.

[Wendelspanswick]

We were talking about building a sheperds hut to keep in the woods but before embarking on an expensive build I researched the legalities of keeping a 'caravan' permeanantly in our woodland.
The problem is the use of the caravan. If you use the caravan as you would a storage shed you are ok, the problem is if you use the caravan under the 28 day rule, the legislation says that the caravan must be moved off that location after those 28 days.
So if you use your caravan or sheperds hut to sleep in you must remove it in between stays or after 28 days. I thought you could be clever and just move it to the other side of the wood but apparently it has to be moved to a different parcel of land and cannot go back onto the original parcel of land for a year.
Our 16 acres is in 4 separate but adjoining parcels (it's shown this way on the OS maps) so in theory we could shift the hut for 4 times 28 days but then would still have to shift it offsite for 8 months of the year.

As an aside this same rule is where Kevin McCloud fell foul of the planners with his 'man cave'.

[oldclaypaws]

Small point. When I looked into the planning regarding stopping on site, governed by the 1936 Health Act, it stated that,

You cannot camp on one site for more than 42 consecutive days or 60 days in any year

So if that's correct, its a tad more flexible than 28 days. The 28 day rule applies to activities like holding meetings, exhibitions, sales and events, not to camping or caravanning, as I understand it.

Please feel free to correct me if the legislation has been updated and you've got the time to go through dozens of online pages of tedious Government Acts, its a great cure for insomnia.

[Wendelspanswick]

You may be correct with that length of time, that was the problem I had in getting clarification from various websites so in the end I approached both Taunton Deane LA and West Somerset LA and they both stated that if a caravan/mobile home/sheperds hut was used for overnight stays on agricultural land/woodland then a maximum of 28 days was permissible with the caravan to be removed from the location outside of these times. Taunton Deane even went so far as to point out that they have a zero tolerance policy for those who flout these regulations and that they have done and will do enforce the regulations fully, which seems to ring true as I have not witnessed any caravans/shepherds huts etc. in the local countryside apart from the occasional travellers site.
Any that do appear disappear after a short while which is why I decided not to gamble on a shepherds hut.