Hey Folks

[Skund]

Hey everyone, I've just joined the forums.

I live on an 18 acre smallholding with my parents and sister in South East Wales while I study an MSc. We moved here last September and we're (finally) getting round to planning a 6 acre wood in one of our fields. We're pretty much novices at planting new woodland although myself and my dad have some experience managing an existing woodland we used to own.

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So yeah, planning... We're in the process of applying for a grant for planting the trees. We'd get money for 1600 trees per hectare and we need 5 or more native species in order to qualify. Our current thinking is to go for a coppice with standards, try and incorporate some fruit and nut trees, and think about the future in terms of climate change. The field itself is on a hillside and faces East. It's well drained apart from a couple of small areas which have been damp to sodden over the past couple of months.

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With the above in mind we're thinking of planting ash, oak, birch, willow, sweet chestnut, alder, elder, crab... basically we're going to try and fit as many species in as possible. How this translates to real life is a different matter though. Ideally ash and sweet chestnut would feature quite heavily although, as the FC bloke who came round mentioned, there would be some concerns over planting sweet chestnut due to disease. If anyone could comment on this it would be appreciated.

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Anyway, rambled on enough I guess. No doubt I'll be asking you lot numerous questions over the coming weeks! Thanks, Sam

[woodbodger]

Chestnut ,Elder and Crab don't work in our wood in Carmarthen. Ash is prolific and if you want any seedlings there are hundreds of them here that can just be pulled out of the soft ground.

[Stephen1]

Hi Sam

Fruit trees in woodland can be tricky - in terms of getting a good crop!

You need to think about the competition they will receive in terms of sunlight from other trees. Always plant on the most vigourous rootstocks (In case you're not familiar with this I'll just add fruit trees are rarely grown on their own roots but are grafted on to a specific rootstock - which affects the size, disease resistance and age they start producing fruit)- Apples must be on M25, pears on pyrus, plums on Myrobalan B (not the equally vigorous Brompton which is susceptible to bacterial canker).

You have to be careful about the varieties you select as well - in the shady, humid and relatively sheltered environment of woodland diseases such as scab and canker are a real problem. I would recommend vigourous disease resistant trees such as Jupiter , Annie Elizabeth, Belle de Boskoop and arkansas for apples. For pears Catillac and jargonelle. Plums - don't bother with anything other than Marjorries seedling... Again because of the shade cooking varieties will probably perform better

The main risk you would then be left with is honey fungus (although pears on pyrus roots are resistant to this) You can reduce the risk of this by surrounding your fruit trees with a resistant tree such as birch. The second advantage of birch around them is that it casts a relatively light shade.

Of course in time as your woodand develops and your fruit trees start to produce fruit you will find what you have done is create a feeding station for grey squirrels who will take the vast majority of your crop before it is ripe!

Oh forgot to add the one tree that does fruit well in the shade (relative shade) is morello cherry which on a mazzard F12/1 root stock is also resistant to honey fungus.

If planting in woodland as opposed to an open orchard arrangement don't get sentimental about using old local welsh varieties - they won't work!!

[Skund]

Thanks for both your replies.

Yeah, I'm aware of the competition that would occur but I was thinking in terms of biodiversity rather than maximum yield for whatever fruit we may (or may not) plant within the copse. Our neighbuor has sweet chestnut on his land and apparently it's doing well... It's not necessarily a woodland setting though. We also have a couple of crabs on our land as well as two more on neighbouring parcels.

Thanks for the advice on rootstock and varieties Stephen, very useful! And yes, we're saving the rare welsh varieties for the orchard!

[Skund]

Woodbodger, just noticed that you mentioned ash... I think ash will feature most prominently in our planting particularly because, as you say, it's so prolific - there' a load of ash just below our land.

[docsquid]

We have planted 9 acres of new woodland recently, adjacent to our existing 11 acres. It is very important to get to know the site first, have a look at what is growing nearby and in the local area, and if possible have a look at and analyse the soil. You may want to zone your new woodland to take account of local soil differences and microclimates, which will undoubtedly occur in a 6 acre plot. If chestnut, crab apple and ash are doing well locally, then it is sensible to base the woodland on those species, with a smattering of other ones.

Plant the alder in damper areas, as it does not thrive in dry soil. I would also not plant any elder - here, at least, it is an invasive weed, and in addition will thrive better on very fertile soil - and you don't really want that in a woodland. We are inundated due to historic animal grazing.

We have a small orchard in an area that used to be a garden, many years ago, but that is separate from the main planting.

It is also worth looking at how you are going to plant the trees: in straight rows on a grid, or a more natural-looking method? Are you going to put in clumps to provide a different habitat from the more sparse areas? Are you deliberately going to add in rides and paths and open glades? The latter are probably more important for biodiversity than lots of different species of trees.

If you would like to have a chat, then get in touch with us via www.alvecotewood.co.uk.

[woodbodger]

What about Mountain ash and a few Blackthorn.

[Skund]

Thanks docsquid, very interesting stuff.

Soil differences is something I have looked at but in no great detail. Aside from noticing a few variations across the smallholding as a whole I've not looked at PH or different types of soil.

Aside from s. chestnut, crab apple and ash there's also a lot of hawthorn, some birch, a few beech, a hazel hedge and a couple of oaks so it seems like the local climate is fairly amenable to a variety of species. Alder and willow (also present on site) are already planned for in the damper area of the woodland.

I hadn't realised that elder was quite so invasive so that's something to think about. I haven't seen any around so maybe elder doesn't do well round here anyway.

Out of necessity - the ground is quite rockey - we'll probably go for a more natural planting scheme. We're planning a couple of rides which will follow an old track and an existing footpath/animal track diagonally up the slope. We also have an easement under telephone wires to consider. So yes, we'll have deliberate rides, paths and probably glades (we would have anyway as wildlife/biodiversity is important to us all).

Woodbodger, thanks. We're definitely looking establish blackthorn on the holding (mmmm... sloe gin) although we don't know where yet. Similarly, we're looking at rowan and actually have a couple on the land already.

Does anyone have any experience with growing medlars? It's something I've wanted to grow for a long time now. Oh, has anyone grown Japanese Bitter Orange before? Not native I know but I'd like to experiment with using the fruit and rootstock.

[Stephen1]

Hi Skund

Medlars are great - definitely try them. They are very shade tolerant as a tree, but obviously will fruit much better the more light they have. Don't go for the vigorous pyrus rootstock with these - they are imperfectly compatible and problems can develop at the graft union as the tree gets older. I would suggest you go for a crataegous (hawthorn) rootstock which gives a hardier tree than the usual quince rootstocks - try The Agroforestry Research Trust (or Keepers nursery) for a supplier. As for variety I would go for "Iranian" this has a good flavour - not as good as "Nottingham", which is the most popular in the U.K., but in the wetter west of the country they are less likely to split (because the fruit is a different shape where the flower was). Once you've got a decent sized tree established you can prune it and graft the cuttings on to established hawthorns in your hedges!

A few years ago I got excited by the idea of cold tolerant citrus. Yes you can grow them outside. Yes you can get them to fruit. No!!! you wouldn't want to eat any of them. I had one variety of satsuma and one hybrid orange/kumquat that were just, just about possible to eat, but nowhere approaching pleasant. Everything else I bought was just truly horrible. Even marmalade made from them was disgusting. I think it's worth bearing in mind that the optomistic descriptions you read about them are written by real enthusiasts... I don't want to be the one to put a downer on your citrus hopes, but really don't waste the time, money or enthusiasm on it. By all means grow a couple of the trifoliate orange (poncirus trifoliata) for the novelty, but cold tolerant citrus of any real value just haven't been bred yet that tolerate our climate. (By that I mean our maritime climate - there are some very cold tolerant citrus that are decently edible that can take winter temperatures much colder than we get here, but they have problems remaining properly dormant in our relatively warm winters, making them very suscetible to even light frosts. In terms of them setting fruit our summers are to cool for it to ripen propery. My point being that it's no good just looking at what minimum winter temperature a variety can take, that's all very well in a continental climate of very cold winters and hot summers - you need something that can take relativey warm winters and relatively cool summers.)

But if you do find a variety that works well please let me know!!!