Badger latest

[Alex]

Squirrels and rabbits are controlled by natural predators, but nothing hunts badgers.

I don't wish to cause any arguments here, but as a farmer, I've seen the damage badgers do beyond their supposed link to TB.

An official cull isn't required, however protection of them should be lifted.The 1992 Badger Act should be repealed, and farmers shouldn't face prosecution for forcing badgers off their land / controlling numbers.

Fortunately I live in the middle of no where, so I can do almost as I please, but I know many who live nearer society, and have to be wary of the misguided animal lovers.

Anyone else had trouble from badgers?

[SimonFisher]

Squirrels and rabbits are controlled by natural predators, but nothing hunts badgers.

That's because we've already eradicated those animals that would. Aren't young badgers taken by birds of prey? Or does that not happen in the UK?

as a farmer, I've seen the damage badgers do beyond their supposed link to TB.

Would you care to elaborate?

Fortunately I live in the middle of no where, so I can do almost as I please

???

[docsquid]

As I see it, badgers are important predators, and predators are something that we lack in our ecosystem, having hunted many of them to the margins. We have badgers. They do no damage. At all. We love to see them, because they are a mark of a healthy ecosystem that sustains enough life to support top predators.

It does not matter that there are no predators of badgers: in an ecosystem, a state of balance comes to pass whereby the predator numbers are regulated by the availability of their food supply, and overcrowding, disease and so forth. If there are more badgers, it is because the ecosystem can support them. In fact there are predators of badgers - humans (many illegal killings of this protected creature, and many accidental killings on the roads).

The problem is that we rarely let ecosystems come into balance, because we feel the need to constantly "control" them. It is one thing to take a few rabbits or pheasants in a sustainable way, by acting as a natural predator, and another thing entirely to slaughter or wipe out a species from an area merely because we don't like them, or like what our way of life has made them become. IF the evidence showed that badger culling made a large contribution to control of bovine TB, without causing adverse effects, and there were no alternatives, then I would be prepared to look at it. But...the evidence doesn't show that, and there are alternatives (vaccination for badgers and for cattle, once the new test is approved).

The main problem is that humans are not prepared to pay the proper cost of production of meat and milk for our consumption, and as a consequence cattle are not bred to be healthy, or kept in healthy conditions, and put under enormous stress under intensive rearing conditions, which perpetuates the risk of disease. Why badgers should pay the price for this is not at all clear. Besides which, it isn't only badgers that provide a reservoir of infection in wildlife - many other species are implicated - do we kill them all? Sorry, I can't support the cull in any shape or form.

[Alex]

That's a fairly good post docsquid.

The trouble is an over abundance of badgers leads them to not be supported by the natural ecosystem, but to instead attack and kill in many cases lambs, chickens and pheasants. To say they 'do no damage at all' is extremely misguided.

In my opinion badgers are as bad as foxes, they should be treated as vermin. They shouldn't be wiped out completely and blamed fully for the TB infection in cattle, but they shouldn't be as legally protected as they are either.

I agree with everything else you said though, the intensiveness of farming has a lot to take blame for.

[docsquid]

Taking lambs, chickens etc, if that happens, is simply natural behaviour of a predator who, given the opportunity we provide, simply follows its own instincts. So it is up to us to manage this situation.

However, I do think that farming needs to work with nature, not try and control and exterminate it every time it poses a problem, or forces a re-think into the way we do things. The problem farmers have is that people are not willing to pay the price - if supermarkets would pay a market price (that includes a loss to wildlife predation) and pass this on to consumers, then there would be no need to think about exterminating it. I have a lot of sympathy with farmers over the way they are exploited by the middle-men. It is a problem, we are a clever species, we can work round this without resorting to killing everything. Farmers are caught between a rock and a hard place, and I do not envy them. It does not change my mind on culling of wildlife though, although I do not object to individuals taking a small quantity of wildlife for their own food provided this is sustainable and the species are not protected or endangered.

Badgers have as much right to be there as the lambs and chickens, cattle and everything else. I do not OWN my land, even if I bought it - I am privileged to be the guardian of a piece of land that is shared by a wide variety of species other than my own, and which in due course I will pass on to somebody else to care for in the same way. If I fail to look after my chickens and they are taken by a fox, I don't blame the fox, I blame myself (yes, I do keep chickens). I don't consider foxes vermin - they are a very beautiful and valuable predator. We encourage foxes and badgers in our woodland, and would never permit anybody to harm them. We regularly see foxes having caught rabbits on our wildlife cameras - an example of natural cycles and predator/prey relationships in action.

[splodger]

i'm a bit twix 'n between on this argument - i can understand the farmers wanting the badger numbers to be reduced - but as i understand it - a cull in small areas just wouldn't work - as disturbed sets would up sticks and move into new areas - therefore increasing the risk of any spread of disease

i do think that a lifting of the pretected species status might help in principle but i fear that it could lead to the eraditation of the species

i don't want to see any creature wiped out completely

[Hobby]

God there's some heartless, nasty individuals on this forum, look up the word empathy and compassion, you may learn something.

[Hobby]

Jennysmate, you say the following..

"I see the damage rabbits, squirrels etc do in my wood and would have no qualms in killing the blighter's ", follwed by....
"Those who enjoy shooting defenceless animals are beyond my contempt ".

I'm a little confused at this point, what defence do the local squirrels and rabbits have around your way then, are they packing an MP5 rifle, or maybe an Uzi smg on their backs ???, or do you hold yourself in contempt ?.

My previous post was NOT directed at you by the way.

[jennysmate]

O.K. I obviously didnt make myself clear.
I wont attempt to explain my stance further, as we are way off topic and I havent got the time or inclination.
I hear that there will be a gov. debate on the badger cull today.

[Alex]

Well said ratcatcher and oldclaypaws.

I'm of the opinion that the Halal method of slaughter completely drains the blood from the carcass, whilst our less 'barbaric' methods, of firstly stunning the animals prevents the blood from being drained. Is there a noticable taste difference?

My grandfather tells me stories of years ago, before legislation, they would slaughter the animals on the farm, he'd have the job of holding them, whilst his father slit their throat, and his mother would collect and stir the blood in order to make black pudding. I don't think a preacher was sat in the corner reading from the Koran, but I doubt in those days the feelings of the pig were considered important.

Going very off topic here sorry.

So I'll try to get back to the black and white foxes debate. Try to put yourself in my shoes, my livelihood is dependent on lambs surviving, I have to fight against the weather, work throughout the night, and help birth numerous lambs, I shepherd with a torch, a crook and a trusted sheepdog, then one morning I wake to find more than 3 lambs gone missing, I search and search and search, finally find them with their stomachs ripped out (badger) or decapitated and not eaten (fox), is it my fault the lambs are not inside and protected by four walls? Nonsense, my neighbours did this, and the badgers managed to get in and kill a lot more than 10. Lambing indoors also has the negative effect of diseases (much healthier outdoors especially if the breed is hardy).
Should badgers really be protected when nothing except over population and the subsequent onset of starvation and disease will likely lead to their control? Nature is cruel, an accurate and clean marksman is not.