Hazel and TPO ?

[smojo]

The question is, does coppiced hazel come under the restrictions of a TPO? The difference between a tree and a bush as I understand it, is a tree is single stemmed and a bush is multi-stemmed, so by definition, a coppiced species is technically a bush. I guess the "get-out" might be that to be truly a tree, it has to be naturally multi-stemmed. But if coppiced hazel is not restricted by a TPO, that could make a big difference to someone with a TPO on their woods. Re-coppicing, cutting of occasional stems for making small produce, stakes etc shouldn't need the usual planning application. Of course I will clarify with my district council eventually but just wondered if any of you experts have pursued this angle and know the answer.

[Zathras]

There is a TPO on my woods, you will have to check the wording of your TPO to understand what is covered but there are some general rules to work by.
Still expanding my knowledge so don't take any of this as gospel and I'd also be interested in other opinions here.

In my case the tree types are named, they are Ash, Elm and Hawthorn - so anything else is far game in my books, that said there aren't many other species and I wouldn't want to fell any of those anyway. Though it is good to know we can work on any others if necessary without the need to seek consent.

We had a query as to the validity of Hawthorn as a tree, rather than a bush.
But have settled on the fact that as most of ours are very old they do sit in the tree category due to their size and are named on the TPO anyway.
Those investigations didn't reveal to me anything about multi-steamed or coppice being considered a bush though, so I don't think you could consider them excluded from your TPO on that basis.

That said, there is some ambiguous wording around the size of tree protected based on diameter.
In conservation areas less than 7.5cm at 1.5m high is far game and during thinning then 10cm, but it isn't entirely clear if this is the same condition for all trees in a TPO.
I'm airing on the side of caution myself but very little of ours falls into this category and we're focusing on the dead, dying, fallen trees, brush, etc which are outside of the TPO.

The bit I find most grey is a fallen tree which is still attached and alive - although I have no doubt consent would be given in a heartbeat to cut it up, I'm not sure if consent is required in such cases. We have quite a few like this, with small limbs now trying to grow like new trunks while the main trunk is now on the floor or hung up at <45 degrees but these are all very unstable resulting in the tree rolling over to break the connection eventually, not to mention the damage they are causing to other trees around them. I'd like to not need the extra admin of consent to deal with them of course.

Now, all this and other work can be done under one Management Plan which, if you get the forestry commissions help or validation, can cover all the grey areas. We're working on one, but this is a year one project for us as we get to know the woods better. We don't want to jump in too soon with a plan without fully understanding the impact, our own skills/gaps and costs.

So in your case if you name your coppice in the management plan and the forestry commission agree it is in the interests of good woodland maintenance, then it should considered by the council valid work once you have registered it with them. As the plan will cover 10 or more years, then you should include as much of the likely work as possible to avoid involving the council again later.

[oldclaypaws]

TPO's aside, you are allowed to coppice unlimited amounts without a felling license provided its thinner than 15cm / 6" at chest height. (And I've never heard of anyone being told off for cutting thicker overstood hazel than that) Hazel is a classic coppice species; nobody is going to worry if you cut it, its going to encourage the tree to thicken, it rapidly regrows and doing so is great for wildlife and flora.

TPO's aren't meant to restrict coppicing, in your case just clear-felling, and frankly I think you are rather over-worrying about the potential wrath of bureaucrats; its your wood, you can carry out usual forestry, nobody with a clipboard is going to count the twigs daily or arrest you for not filling in form 126B-a4/farting upwind of Doncaster application, so chill and enjoy.

[smojo]

Thanks both of you. Yeah I'm probably being a little too cautious but the fines can be something like £20k per tree. My solicitor gave me a copy of my TPO. It says (among lots of gobbledegook) "no person shall, except without consent .....blah blah......cut down, top, lop, uproot, wilfully damage (that's open to interpretation isn't it?), wilfully destroy, or cause or permit the cutting down, lop, top .... etc etc of any tree specified in the First schedule (and the whole woods where mine is located is listed in that). So that pretty much covers everything doesn't it. No mention of tree diameters or specific species. I will eventually get around to the boring bits and contact the tree and hedgerow officer and get clarification of course but just wondered where the line is before I cross it.

[oldclaypaws]

If you look at the Second Schedule of your TPO, section 1B, http://johnclegg.s3.amazonaws.com/scabba-wood_829587428.pdf, you'll see the TPO doesnt apply to any plans approved by the forestry commission, so DMBC have in effect delegated approval and supervision of local forestry to the FC, the body which really knows about all tree related stuff.

You need to observe it for a while, read lots of relevant guides on management, ask the local FC officer nicely to visit, and ask them for management tips in order to draw up a long term management plan, including any thinning, coppicing and felling with license if necessary. FC officers are very helpful and will give good advice. If you write down your plan with a map and can get a confirmation (even an email) from the FC officer that they think its appropriate, it gives you an official green light to proceed as outlined in your plan and justify your actions if challenged by anyone such as Council Officers.

[smojo]

Cheers, Paws, I haven't looked at the section you mentioned but if that is correct about FC pretty much controlling what can be done, that seems to simplify and open up an easier route. I was eventually going to look into getting them to take a look. Do you know if they charge a fee for that?

[oldclaypaws]

All FC advice and visits are free, usefully. If you explain its semi-ancient, they're a bit more interested in recognition of the importance of sensitive management. They'll recommend little touches like deadwood heaps, clearings and what to get shot of (like bramble). They favour active coppicing, biodiversity and thinning where appropriate to maximise tree health. They do seem to see things from a bit of a timber production bias, so its also worth seeking out local wildlife groups for an input and maybe a recommended forestry consultant with an ecological slant. Chap I got came out for a couple of hours for £80 and gave very good quality info. The FC chap, wildlife trust contact and paid consultant all sang from the same songsheet as the general advice from management books so it seems to be quite clear for which way I should go. I reckon you have a good starting point and mix of species and only need to 'fine tune'.

[smojo]

Thanks again Paws. Just back to the TPO section you highlighted.

If you look at the Second Schedule of your TPO, section 1B,

I'm in some doubt about what that applies to. Section (1) says "The cutting down of any tree on land which is subject to a forestry dedication covenant where:" and part (b) of that "the cutting down is in accordance with a plan of operations approved by the FC under such deed" So it suggests that you don't need an application to the council if the operation is approved by FC and the land is under a dedication covenant.

This is what I found for a definition of a forestry dedication covenant and I'm still no wiser - total gobbledegook to me. Section 5 describes it.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1967/10

[smojo]

I reckon you have a good starting point and mix of species and only need to 'fine tune'.

Yeah I agree. Went again yesterday, starting to get a better idea of what might need doing - identified some of the sycamore stand which are poor form or damaged and candidates for thinning, bit of pruning to improve eventual timber quality, a bit of thinning here and there in the mixed area to let some light in and allow others to expand and re-coppicing of hazel stools. As I see it, as a novice, what I want to do so far is good forestry husbandry and shouldn't upset the authorities. Will definitely try to get FC in for consultation before too long. Need to clear some more bramble so they can actually get in to look at it!

[oldclaypaws]

I'd imagine, bearing in mind my native language is Geordie and not Jargonize, that 'dedication covenant' means an agreed management plan, possibly one where you are legally signed up to a certain FC authorised plan in return for a grant. It might be an idea just to ring the Council, say you are proposing to have your (limited & best practice) plans inspected & commented on by the FC, and does that satisfy them and the terms of the TPO. Most Council employees (not all) are human and a short frank chat can put you in the picture and clarify things, as I have always found with their planners. They'd sooner you talked to them amicably rather than ignoring them.

I honestly don't think you've much to worry about. The sales particulars say the TPO doesn't prevent normal forestry operations. I think its there to ensure owners go through the FC and don't do anything drastic and unauthorised like change of use or clear felling, which they can't do anyway. If so, its actually just bureaucratic overkill and rather pointless.

The TPO seems to be a blanket cover of any sizeable wood in the area, havent counted them but theres maybe 30 or more woods listed- yours is number 23, so its more of a policy than trying to specifically stop any sensible forestry activity in your little plot. The Council (which like all councils is facing large staff cuts) probably don't have either the resources or interest in coming out and inspecting every crowded sapling you may or may not remove. 'Fret yee not laddie'.

Once you've spent more time in your wood you'll forget all about the outside world and its strange up tight regulations and stresses. In the woods everything just.......well........'is'.