Somebody has to ask

[Rich]

The way I see it is we have a broad mix of people, some like the forum, for it's structure and it's easy(ish) way of finding information. Some like facebook for the banter or multi media, or whatever it is? I'm not really sure exactly.

But a forum like this can not be all things to all people, just like facebook can not. We can't have a structure with informed discussion which is easy to navigate without having a few basic guidelines and rules.

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1204

Keeping to the thread of the conversation, starting a new one instead of wondering 'off topic', being courteous and respectful etc This is actually harder than may seem apparent. For instance, I am following a thread 'Somebody has to ask' This is more of a conversation opener than something that is going to tell me anything about the contents of the discussion. Should I ask Dave and Verity to "Think about the subject heading of their post, .... and to "be as concise and clear as possible". Well I could do, but there again I'm equally guilty of not starting a new thread along the lines of "Forum or Facebook preferences" (if that's what this thread is about???).

So it's not perfect, but IF you are interested in looking through the archives of the discussions in search of a particular subject, It is better than having no structure. I think most people would agree that it's great to be able to find stuff easily and probably most people would also admit that they don't really like being reminded to do things, in our case to try and keep to the basic rules which in turn maintains the structure and usability of the forum.

On top of this, we also have the problem of how we convey emotions. Humour is one which periodically surfaces with unfortunate consequences. I know everyone who has registered for the forum has the funniest sense of humour but sometimes this just doesn't translate, it gets misinterpreted or on occasion, it has been offensive.

We did attempt to overcome some of these mixed styles of posting a while back by opening a 'lounge' room for chit chat and banter, but actually thinking about it, this is what facebook does so much better. So it's not a competition between the forum and facebook, I encourage everyone to post to whichever medium suits them better. Personally I don't post to facebook as it so intrusive, all the forum collects from it's registered members is an email address and username and we don't do anything with that!

[boxerman]

Rich, you know my personal views on this but I'll just offer a view or two in public if I may?

Yes, I'm pretty sure you're right that most would prefer the forum layout because it logs useful posts in a helpful way for folk to browse through and gain knowledge (something I'm busy trying to do before buying a wood) - I'd suspect that this goes for everyone who's abandoned ship from here and it would take little to attract most back. Yes, most have moved over to FB because they want to enjoy a little banter along with the serious stuff and any of that has resulted in 2 active posters getting banned from here. You say a 'forum cannot be all thing to all people' and I'd have to ask, 'why not?' most modern and successful forums incorporate both and it isn't difficult to achieve. Put simply, this forum has the potential to be the UK's leading archive in all things woodland but it's not happening because the main posters have walked because they're tired of being told off (tactful comment) for enjoying a little humour. OK, I know a couple of them can, at times be a little OTT but that should be easy enough to control with friendly moderation rather than a sledgehammer that results in banning them.

You talk of the 'Someone has to ask' thread posted under the General heading and hypothetically ask if it should have been changed - considering it's under the general heading why would it even cross your mind to query it?? General is, or should be, exactly what it says and relatively unimportant in the flow of stored knowledge.

Yes, humour can present a problem in that it's easily misinterpreted - that's what smilies are for within the forum context - uploading a better selection of them any help and then encouraging folk to use them.

My own personal view for what it's worth is that this forum was set up 10 years ago when internet resources were scarce and controlling the members in this way would have been acceptable - 10 years down the line 'net resources are two a penny and folk simply won't wear this amount of control. Moderation of a forum is NOT difficult IF the Mods are all one of the guys and their actions are seen to be reasonable - the actions that have been seen recently have clearly not been seen as reasonable and without the main posters here this place will simply fade into the background and no-one will benefit. Moderation styles have to be changed if this place is to survive.

[oldclaypaws]

Dave and Verity asked where everybody has gone, as traffic on this forum has gone down by 80% since the Forum vs Facebook 'discussion' 2 months ago. Discussion is slightly inaccurate as that implies an exchange of views was permitted, which it was not. At the same time as the world was standing shoulder to shoulder calling for the right to free speech, on here we saw the opposite. Several members had their posts rebuffed, dismissed and deleted during the 'discussion' and the thread was closed. A certain mod insulted many of the forum members. The result was a mass exodus, with the 20+ of the most popular and active members jumping ship, who have not been back. The mod in question has alienated most of the users on here by being intolerant, rude and autocratic. It is not a question of content or humour. The forum members do not like to see popular fellow users bullied, banned, censored and told to leave, so that is exactly what they have collectively done. Had an ordinary forum member upset so many people they would have been chucked off straight away. Instead this person is we presume still allowed their free hand and the forum has been ruined. That is sad.

[smojo]

Shame really, I don't really take to facebook. I formed my opinion after hearing the following conversation between two women friends (the names have been changed, blah, blah blah).

Sarah: Have you seen Mary's new baby yet?

Harriet: Yep, on facebook yesterday.

Shocking that anyone would consider facebook an alternative to sharing the experience of a new born baby. It's put me off for life.

Dave

I was tempted into FB from Paws having binned it a few years ago because all I was reading from my "friends" was shite. Anyway I rejoined but "unfriended" all my old ones and decided I would only accept friends who were interesting to me. I also changed my profile so I don't get notified every time someone posts. If I want to see what my "friends" are doing, I visit their page when I want to, not when I'm prompted. I still dislike it buy I am enjoying being part of a few select groups who share my interests. To be honest I don't rate the SWOG group as highly as some others on there and don't find it all that useful and certainly not user friendly in following your posts. I would love for this place to get back on its feet. I understand there are personality clashes which have tainted this forum and it's such a pity that folks can't get on with each other when really all we want is to talk about our woods with each other. I know some folks won't come back here until there are some changes made. Come on, don't let this forum die.

[Dave and Verity]

Firstly my apologies for the thread title, I am guilty of my own personal pet hate when browsing forums. It was a bit of a one off though, I had no idea where everybody went and wanted to know and I'm sure there are others out there that were in the same frame of mind. It has served to get people conversing again, they haven't completely left, if they had, they wouldn't be particpating in this discussion. The most active thread on here for a while, might I add.

Then I feel highly insulted about not being one of the 20 most popular on here who have set sail. I would like that comment struck immediately and the offending writer banned for ever.

'twas a joke by the way. I've not seen eye to eye with certain members on here before, the same applies to other forums, it's a bit like real life and I don't get all huffy about it. A certain sense of humour is a requirement of joining a forum. The fact that you can't see the other persons tongue bulging in their cheek makes it a bit fractious at times. It's all part of the fun providing people stay within reasonable boundaries.

Ultimately I'm being selfish, this has been a very useful resource in the short time I've been on here and I'd hate to see it wither to nothing. I refuse to participate on facebook, I did sign on as I have teenage children and like to know what's going on in their lives amongst the ether, but that is my limit, I will not get sucked any further in.

So come on chaps and chapesses, we know enough about hatchets between us to find the right depth of hole. Can we play nicely?

Dave

[smojo]

I did sign on as I have teenage children and like to know what's going on in their lives amongst the ether

Mine are grown up now but it's the last thing I'd want to do. Ignorance is bliss (and less stressful)

[Rich]

You say a 'forum cannot be all thing to all people' and I'd have to ask, 'why not?' most modern and successful forums incorporate both and it isn't difficult to achieve.

I suppose what I meant by that is that it can not satisfy every persons ideal of how the forum should be run. I think the common consensus is that the board has been successful, some people who join are happy to go along with how it is, others want to change it, it's just human nature. We've changed some things and kept others. One of the known unknowns, is the people that lurk reading all the posts but don't post. I know there are a lot that do because I speak to them. Some don't like to post mostly from lack of confidence or fear of showing their ignorance or not quite understanding the jest and banter from the more serious flame wars which have occasionally erupted. I always try to post with these people in mind, it's not difficult to find an encouraging word for a newbie, but it is hard to get them back if after posting they feel belittled or humiliated.

You talk of the 'Someone has to ask' thread posted under the General heading and hypothetically ask if it should have been changed - considering it's under the general heading why would it even cross your mind to query it?? General is, or should be, exactly what it says and relatively unimportant in the flow of stored knowledge.

Actually I was referring to the title of the thread, not the catagory it is in.

From viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1204
"Think about the subject heading of your post, be as concise and clear as possible."

The point I was trying to make, if exceedingly badly, is that although we have 'rules and etiquette' we all break them! And we are not such an intolerant and pedantic bunch as to keep pointing these breaches out!

At the end of the day, I'm happy that people are happy to use facebook and happy that people are happy to use the forum (see how happy, I don't often use those!) They are different and there should be enough breadth of style in the 2 groups to (nearly) be 'all things to all people'

[boxerman]

Clearly we have to agree to disagree on much of this, Rich and that's fine - you're the Administrator and your role is to run it as you see fit.

I actually agree with much of what you say here and non-posters are always an unknown on any forum and, yes, folk should help and encourage them without humiliating them for an unintentional silly comment/idea but in my years of running a forum solving those issues is much more successful with a quiet and friendly word or a public and gentle ribbing of the offender rather than stamping down with a size 10 boot. Heavy handed moderation rarely achieves anything other resentment and rebellion which is clearly what has happened here.

I think the common consensus is that the board has been successful,

Yes, I'd agree BUT in my view, the operative words here are 'has been'. The question in my mind is: can it continue to be that when the regular and generally well liked posters (including a Mod) have taken the hump because of perceived heavy handed over-moderation and few are any longer posting useful information?

I'm currently on a learning curve while I save enough to actually get my place - when I first joined I felt that this place was a godsend in the search for knowledge and most of those who helped with that knowledge have now moved on and little information is flowing. I see a vicious circle on the horizon, with few new posts, little additional knowledge being shared and little interest and that potentially equals a dead forum as folk will see little point.

Anyway, hopefully this is my last comment on this subject.

[Dexter's Shed]

One of the known unknowns, is the people that lurk reading all the posts but don't post. I know there are a lot that do because I speak to them. Some don't like to post mostly from lack of confidence or fear of showing their ignorance or not quite understanding the jest and banter from the more serious flame wars which have occasionally erupted. I always try to post with these people in mind,

but.... Lurkers chew up bandwidth without adding any value

To hold them in higher or even just equal regard than active members is either naive or a smoke screen


I tried to keep true to my word and not visit the site to see if it carried on as normal, or dried up from lack of post's, back to the time when I first joined it seemed similar to what it is now, I joined as ratcatcher and the newest post was months old,

although I enjoy the facebook page, I said it before and I'll say it again, forums are better, post's can get lost on FB, and it's a pain scrolling through post after post trying to find stuff, forums are laid out much better, I logged back in a few days ago because someone pointed out about this post, now the question is, should I stay or should I go ????

should myself and oldclaypaws apologise if we have ever caused offence to anyone,??
it takes a big man to admit they have been wrong, and whether to clear the air someone else in question would care to apologise for any offence they have caused and undertake to try not to be so intolerant in the future? That way the air might be cleared.

perhaps the members who have commented here could decide
I have some good pictures/video's of our bees in the woods, and the ongoing goose wood honey
and will soon be trialling the new flow hive if anyone has seen them
funnily enough, I've been made a moderator on their forum

[boxerman]

funnily enough, I've been made a moderator on their forum

God help them, Dex..... As a forum member I love you but there are limits.....

From a purely personal view I would love to see you, Paws and the rest of the gang back here and posting useful and interesting info and the usual B.S. I suspect that would take compromise on both sides tho and whether the opposing side is willing to compromise I have little idea. Maybe it's time for a truce. How about a football match in no mans land??

Let's put this in simple terms. Bugger principles, you and Paws make open apologies for any offence you may have caused to anyone, Simon makes equal apologies for harsh treatment that you two feel you've received. You and Paws agree to give a little more thought to posts that could potentially cause offence (particularly to newbies) while Simon agrees to relax moderation to a sensible level and allow a little B.S., banter and the occasional vaguely smutty comment. We could all get back to normal then and have a viable friendly and happy forum. If everyone treats everyone else with respect we can have a good place to visit.

Let the happy times roll......