Covenant

[Ryan]

Hi Forum - as a question, people that have bought their woods through companies other than woodlands.co.uk, did you have to sign a convenant?

I am looking at woods4sale.com as we speak and I cannot find one.

Here is the convenant from woodlands.co.uk

1. do any rough or game shooting or pest control at times or in a manner constituting a nuisance or danger to any neighbour;

2. use the land or access tracks for any sort of racing whether with motor bikes, cars or other vehicles;

3. use the land for a commercial campsite;

4. use the land for clay pigeon shooting;

5. conduct any business from the land apart from forestry;

6. use the land in a way which will damage the access tracks.

7. The purchaser and successors in title shall not erect any signboards visible from the public highway

I can understand why people sell woodlands with this attached but I will need this amended to cover all future eventualities as I am looking to open any woods purchase up to wider audiences (children, schools etc).

Having spoken to James from woodlands.co.uk (nice guy) I have expressed my concerns about the restricted covenant and he is speaking to the powers that be to see if can be changed but if it can't I just wondered if anyone else has signed these through other companies.

Thanks for any help !

[Exeldama]

I looked at this issue carefully. With woodlands.co.uk their covenant is there to benefit us all, and as with all things is open to interpretation.

So vehicle could mean just powered or include a child being pushed in a whellbarrow. i think the moral of the story would be that if you are reasonable no-one will mind.

After all nuisance could constitute a fire producing smoke... i suspect as with most law it cannot be prohibitivley restrictive in an unreasonable sense.

The issue i do have cause for concern over is the restriction on splitting title. I can see the wish to prevent idiots like that unamed compnay who sell off tiny plots but what if you manage your 30 acres and recognise that you can subdivide it into 3 to make it more managable and give two families the oppurtunity to have some fun.

Of course doing it sensibly is a must, but perhaps the whole covenant thing should be more focussed upon the management side rather than title.

I know of woods bought through woodlands.co.uk which are being managed diffrently to their neighbours but this in itself surely adds to the generalised biodiversity.

[tracy]

I agree that the different management styles add such a variety to a woodland - some woods that were never managed get a variety of uses and habitats. Very exciting and loads of conservation groups agree.

The 'no more splitting' policy is to prevent woods becoming building plots. I think it is a really important point.

I hope you get some more answers Ryan, they are very reasonable covenants that can be worked with.

I think you would have to chose a wood carefully for forest school things. Just think, if person A with no kids buys a wood for peace and quiet and goes camping during school terms - how delighted are they going to be with 30 kids having tons of fun in the wood right next to them, day after day? I think it is brilliant, but these things need to be considered, and that is why the covenant is there. You might like to look for a section of a wood that is on the edge, so there is only one neighbouring owner, and easy access, or a wood that stands alone. I guess it depends how often you would have kids there too. Once a month would not be an issue for other owners, but daily might be....

The covenant that might seem to be restricting us a bit, is protecting us too! Means you are not suddenly going to get quad bikes and shooting and public camping going on next door.

Don't give up, these things can be worked out!

[DaveTaz]

Hi Ryan, we bought through woods4sale and yes we did sign up to some kind of agreement relating to its future use ie forestry only, no commercial camping, no racing etc.

I think it would depend on the actual vendor of the woodland as to what the agreement would include how ever i think most of these are pretty standard. As above, most reasonable activities don't seem to cause any problems where we are in north wales

[James M]

A lot of this is a) enshrined in law b) written out as a covenant to add value to buyers for leisure/conservation and scare off property developers. e.g.

1. do any rough or game shooting or pest control at times or in a manner constituting a nuisance or danger to any neighbour;

- relfects what the law more or less is.

2. use the land or access tracks for any sort of racing whether with motor bikes, cars or other vehicles;

- need planning permissison for change of use.

3. use the land for a commercial campsite;

- need planning permissison for change of use also contravenes (5)

4. use the land for clay pigeon shooting;

- need planning permissison for change of use if you do it on a lage scale also contravenes (5)+(1), plus its irritating going on next door to you. Although it is strange to see it singled out - perhaps they've had problems with it in the past.

5. conduct any business from the land apart from forestry;

- need planning permissison for change of use, stops people hiring out caravans, building holiday lets.

6. use the land in a way which will damage the access tracks.

- fair enough, we don't own the tracks but we rely on them, also a way for woodlands to make sure (5) above cant happen.

7. The purchaser and successors in title shall not erect any signboards visible from the public highway

- thats the law

Despite what people say I think woodlands.co.uk do actually sell a product which is about families/leisure, not property development - hence the ban on further subdivision, even for your kids !- what's to stop them acting like property developers? Tracy's point about peace and quiet is spot on. A major change of use like that would probably need planning permission, and you'd need to persuade woodlands that it was OK. I bought because of the strength of protection the covenant provides - if they weakened it then it would set a precedent and devalue the place, and a lot of owners might have something to say about it.

That covenant does an important job and I know at least two people who have not bought because of it - mind you they both wanted to split it up further and stick log cabin kits on the land.

One thing many might agree on is that the more owners you have in one place the more complicated and noisy things get. You need to 'learn' how to own a woodland - it sounds daft, but you do need to some time to settle down and figure out how to go about things - when you get a bad neighbour who is chasing money and doesn't care about the place or their neighbours right of the bat it really sours things.

In reality, breaching a covenant will not cause as much problems with woodlands as it will with your neighbours who have probably collectively sunk a lot of money into the place precisely to get away from the sort of stuff that an inconsiderate neighbour (I don't mean you Ryan) could kick off with right next door to them.

[Dennis]

If you can persuade the holder of the covenant to release it you require a Deed of release of Covenant = lawyers = large bills. The covenant holder may require a (substantial) payment before agreeing to release the covenant. Likely to need a Deed to modify the covenant too. You can't write your own Deed; doing that was made a criminal offence under the Solicitors Act 1974. (Some closed shops are legally enforced, you see.)

[Stephen1]

Ryan wrote; "Hi Forum - as a question, people that have bought their woods through companies other than woodlands.co.uk, did you have to sign a convenant?"

I didn't sign a covenant - and whilst I can see some advantages, on balance I have to say that had I been requested to I wouldn't have.

The other points I'd make are to be sure to also have the sporting and mineral rights included(in reality mineral rights are more about stone, sand, gravel than copper, lead etc.).

Also consider carefully what difference (often very little) it makes whether the wood is freehold or leasehold.

[Ryan]

Thanks for all your comments and I totally agree that the covenant is a good thing for most. The one I need changing is the following:

5. conduct any business from the land apart from forestry;

I need it to read something along the lines of:

"conduct any business other than that related to education, children's visits and other related type business"

For me the woods is all about children having fun but I understand that is not everyone's cup of tea.

Tracy, I think you are right, it will have to be the right location wood and hopefully you are correct when you say they can be worked with.

If it doesn't get changed, I'm afriad it's a non-starter for me. But hopefully it can be.

Thanks again.

[Ryan]

Thanks Stephen - I think we must have posted at a similar time and I missed your comment before posting mine.

Do you mind me asking who you bought your wood from if you didn't sign a covenant please?

[Exeldama]

Good point James. Privacy laws and human rights legislation cover most things nowerdays.

I have to be honest though i love kids i wouldnt really want a million of them next to me when im trying tantric meditation. No seriously erratic kids is wonderful , but a school i would suggest is best as a stand alone.

Now i feel guilty saying that..oh drat.